Just to clarify my comment above, I’m not condemning marrying non-Muslims across the board. I’m just saying that I don’t think that’s a solution to the problem we are discussing here. We need to find solutions that are long-term and beneficial for the community as a whole, both men and women.

Snowday I have to tell you that the people who I was referring to were mostly young Muslim women I know who met non-Muslim men that converted, not the other way around. But, these women were also converts themselves, as our writer of the article is. However I do realise that this could cause deep controversy in some families.

I would like to further add to the topic that smirza and asma referred to, and Adam requested more information on, about the professional Muslim woman being intimidating to a Muslim man. Not something new. Just want to extend it out of the realm of Muslims and into society in general. Please do not feel this is a problem unique to you as Muslim women. The only reason that many professional women outside of Islam may find it easier to be in relationships, and please note the plural form of the word, is because marriage is not part of the equation, which is obligatory in Islam of course. They would be in the same position for sure if the same relationship constrictions were put on them. They have had to settle for another kind of commitment, or lack of commitment may be a better way of expressing it. This has made a mess of the whole view on marriage unfortunately. They live in fear that if they do marry that it will put an end to the relationship, and prefer to keep things as they are. The early ‘womens libbers’ of the 60s long ago admitted that they ‘got it wrong’, and those women were frustrated by not being able to find ‘real men’. Just as, in some instances, a man may want a woman that will take care of the home and children, and not return to a microwave meal in the oven when he arrives home from work after it being his turn to pick up the screaming parental attention demanding kids from daycare. This lifestyle has been forced on us just by the basic fact that a household now requires two incomes to survive, so how to change it? Some try by working from home. Be it the man or woman, whoever can make the leap out. The definition of the roles of the man and woman in a relationship has become very blurred. You are living in western societies and the ailments of those societies are going to affect us all. Sorry Adam this is not meant to put you off the thought of marriage, just the extreme side of what is happening today that puts so much pressure on relationships. We are filled with the notion of love and physical attraction everyday in the media, but in the end Marriage is a contract between two people, in front of witnesses, who are signing up to work together on it everyday for it to grow and prosper, hopefully for the rest of their lives. Hope you find the right partner to work with.

My point is this:
Is an egalitarian marriage really a bad thing, where both the man and woman give equally, whether it be financially or splitting duties at home?

As for this lifestyle being “forced” on us, I have to disagree. I know plenty of people who live in NYC on 1 income and are alhumdulilah, fine with it. And it all depends on whether or not one wants a family. Every married couple is different.
My being educated and going to work is not “forced” upon me. I chose it, I chose my field, and I chose to pursue a job where I can cultivate my skills and develop new ones, and working is also a form of dawah. I travel for my job and when I go to new places in the country, I am the first Muslim woman that many Americans meet and I have a chance to give them a view on Islam that they have never seen/heard of before. And I want that in my life, I want a career that is enriching, that makes me learn. And I would want my husband to have that, as well.

And you are correct, marriage is a contract, that is the reality, therefore we have a right to ask for what we want and to make sure it is written in ink and signed by everyone. The whole clue is knowing what we want and having the ability to compromise and to continue working at it. If we understand that, we’ll all have successful marriages, inshallah.

I think this has moved a bit off topic. Despite the apparent existence of people being intimidated by success and knowledge, I can’t help but believe this is a subsidiary problem, possibly too often used as a retreat, and not the core of what plagues the general relationship situation.

And I don’t agree with the reduction of marriage to simply nothing more than a contract. That’s a part of it, but it’s not the end of it. I enjoyed this article on Goatmilk Blog, and think it makes a solid point -

http://goatmilkblog.com/2009/12/17/muslims-talking-sex-series-the-other-half-bringing-lust-back-to-love/

There are these play-by-play, standardized models of relationship progression that quite frankly are way beyond the pale of what many contemporary American Muslims find any comfort operating in. But in constructing new models, these ideas still persist - that love, romance, passion, etc. are things to turn one’s nose up to, that marriage is nothing more than a sophisticated business deal, the sum of a normalized, balanced equation. I have to wonder if the willful neglect of our emotional selves is a far greater reason for why people don’t find each other, and something deserving much more conversation than it gets.

Well Adam, to get back to the topic, do you believe in love at first sight? I certainly do. And though there can be a very emotional beginning to this kind of love, it also needs to progress to a stage assessing if you respect the person you have fallen in love with. By finding out who the person is and what she/he is doing with their life, and thinking if you want to share your life with them. Could they add something to your life that would only make it better. 

Though dating can be one way to get to know a person, it can be very deceptive. How many people have said that their spouse was ‘not like that when I was dating them’ (if they had the chance to), when all the joy fell out of their relationship and day to day living began? 

I think one way to discover who a person is to see how they are in their day to day life. Where they work, their goals, the way they interact with people, their causes that get them actively motivated, are all indications of ‘is this the right person for me’. If having a family is one of your goals then see also how they behave with children. You can assess this stuff from a distance through people who know them, before even having a one on one with them. Or friends might even tell you “I know just the person for you, she thinks exactly the same way you do!’

Once you have decided that this is a woman who you would like to get to know better, then you can meet and see if the chemistry is really there and your lives can merge together without too many crashes along the road to the Garden. Emotional love does not always withstand the tests that life puts on it, so mutual respect always needs to be there to be able to hear what the other person is saying.

Though you are talking about the dating process it goes hand in hand with marriage I am afraid in Islam. No wonder people have so many

divorces today. And that is each, not in general. They do not get their priorities right in the first place.

This is a great article with a lot of valid points.  Thanks for writing it, Adam.

It made me reflect on how I do not even have marriage on my mind.  It’s not because I don’t want to get married or meet someone, but because I don’t think there’s any point in actively looking for a partner right now given “where I am” in life.  And I’m not talking about marriage in the traditional sense; I’m talking about True Love; what the Sufis refer to as Ishq-e-Majazi and Ishq-e-Haqiqi, where Love between partners are fused with their deep Love for the Creator of the Universe.

I am still recovering from an experience I had two years ago.  Because of those experiences, I’ve been telling myself for the past two years that there’s no point in looking for someone right now because (1) I’m not finished school yet, (2) I haven’t established a career, and (3) I’m not financially independent. 

Not to give away too many details, but the main reason why I believe I was not married two years ago is due to the fact that I didn’t have a job.  Being madly in Love with someone and watching the days, months, years go by as you work your hardest to finish school and get established so that you can finally get married is very difficult and challenging.  I believe this reveals another problem about Muslim dating/relationships, i.e. there are so many expectations placed on Muslim men and women.

So I simply do not look for romantic relationships until I am financially independent.  I do not mind meeting or falling in Love with a woman who establishes a career before me, but so far, I have not met anyone.  My friends tell me to keep myself open and that “you never know, you might meet someone.”  But it is indeed difficult for all of the reasons you wrote in your article and more.

On a spiritual note, I believe Love for God will guide us to our Soul Mate.  We need to stop discouraging Love, especially when talking about marriage!  We need to stop treating the opposite sex as “threats” to our physical and spiritual “purity.”  It always confused me how our communities speak so highly of marriage and yet practice such strict gender apartheid.

Anyway, despite the awkward gender relationships and other social problems we face in our community, there is a desire from many Muslims to change it.  Just by writing this, you are inspiring change.  As I said, I may not be looking now, but I certainly keep myself and you’ve given me something to think about.  Thanks.

Also, people have mentioned modesty in this blog, and I think that is a valid point. However, this article is in the context of the privacy of marriage and approaches.

“I get the sense from many Muslim women that it is an insult to be attracted to them, that it is some way an assault on their purity of character.”

Your sense is absolutely right because for many Muslim women that is exactly what is going on. Many of us are taught from a young age that if a man flirts with you, you make sure he knows that is inappropriate. In many cultures a woman who responds positively to flirting or attention is viewed as a “loose” woman. A woman with “good character” is supposed to be insulted that a man would think she is the type of girl who would enjoy attention because those types of girls are “loose.”

Well, I hate to further confuse the issue, but look, we’re (i.e. Muslim women) not all identical in this way. I, for one, would *love* it if some guy was bold enough to say, “Hey, I dig you. Let’s hang.” The thought that accepting such an invitation would make me a “loose” woman or a bad woman or a woman “with a reputation” (what does that even mean, anyway?) has literally *never* occurred to me. Perhaps it’s the convert in me thinking, but I can brainstorm few, if any, more harmless ways to spend an afternoon than sharing a cup of joe (and if things go well, a scone, maybe) with a Muslim guy who is enough of a non-stranger for me to be relatively assured that he’s not a psycho. If such activity destroys my “rep” with the aunties, well, I’m afraid I became a lost cause many moons ago.

For what it’s worth, too - for those of you commenting here, I don’t want to put words in Adam’s mouth/pen, but there is little use in responding to the not-uncommon square peg/round hole social complaint of your average well-meaning convert with a list of shoulds. It *may* be improper, or vulgar, or whatever (for the record, I don’t think it’s any of the above, but the point is that it’s up for debate) for us to want our relationships to appear to the world and our hearts and psyches a little bit more like your average American courting ritual, but to tell us that it’s simply “wrong” or “improper” to want and/or miss that, or to feel uncomfortable with the sanctioned alternatives, doesn’t really help us get over our nostalgia. That’s what we’re comfortable with - just as you are comfortable with the rituals with which you were raised. I don’t think it’s crazy to suggest that something akin to dating is adaptable in a Muslim context; after all, culture is awarded the same weight as fiqh, unless it conflicts with fundamental principles. So some people may prefer a private courtship, or to meet with a chaperone, or through relatives, but for us, all of the above probably feels like we accidentally stepped onto the set of a Bollywood film. It should and will and does feel strange, weird, uncomfortable, like shoes that don’t fit. Just something to keep in mind before we shrug off these critiques.

And for what it’s worth, Adam - everyone I’ve spoken to about this article is clapping their hands in appreciation. You’re not alone, man. Keep us posted.

is it just me or is everybody just ignoring the obvious? this really seems to be a cultural problem for Adam.  It’s pretty evident from the comments given by other converts/reverts on this article.  Let’s face it, the bulk of the Muslim population in the US is immigrant, and have brought a lot of their home culture with them which gets passed even as far down as the 3rd generation.

Bottom line: what one culture considers flirting, another can consider vulgar or ridiculous.

Muslim guys from immigrant communities have developed their own form of flirting, usually through Facebook or GChat. If You’re looking to marry a girl from an immigrant community, learn to be subtle. Get to know someone without making it so explicit.  After all, the point is that you’re still trying to figure out if you even WANT to marry her.

If you don’t want to deal with this confusing style of courtship, find a Muslim girl who shares your ethnicity/background.  It’ll be 10 times easier to deal with someone who understands courtship the same way you do.  There is no lack of women who have reverted to Islam in this country. So maybe you really just haven’t found the right girl yet.

Last but not least, a supplication my mother taught me to find your soulmate. Everyday after ‘Isha prayer, recite: Glory be to him, who created all things in pairs, of that which the earth grows, and of themselves, and of that which they know not! (It’s ch. 36, verse 36, easy to remember)

He’s the only One to ask from, and the only One Who can provide!

i myself have only recently come to find the whole process rather befuddling too, and i know i’m not alone in “coming out” about the issue, despite the fact that i don’t come from a convert background as adam does (and hence why it probably took me a bit longer to open my eyes to it all).

in the article adam writes how “muslim communities…have stunted emotional maturation” through these sorts of under-the-cover courtship regimes, and i couldn’t agree more. in fact i’d say that this sort of rather cowardly approach to tough issues (i.e. by “not coming near” to them altogether) is indicative of an larger attitude prevalent among muslims in america today. there are two basic approaches here that i’ve noticed that i’ll attempt to describe.

what i mean by this in the first instance is that muslims that to engage with tough problems (like the relationship issue) will inevitably come at our iman’s detriment, and though this is a valid fear, it does not necessitate such a frigid kind of attitude. if i could be so bold, i actually love being an american muslim precisely BECAUSE of the fact that i am forced to engage with a nonmuslim society and nonmuslim values on a daily basis - this causes me to constantly reassess and reassert my own values, and insha’Allah if one’s intentions are good, it leads to what i see as a more resilient sort of faith.

(the other option is, of course, to isolate one’s self from anything potentially harmful - a sort of constant ietikaaf from the temptations of this world. all defense and no offense. we all know muslim brothers and sisters like this, who view any sort of reconciliation with the surrounding society as somehow unbecoming of a muslim. these sorts of people surround themselves with people just like them in order to reassert what is their , i would argue, rather cowardly - if not outright paranoid - worldview. i understand fearing God, but there is a point where this fear morphs into something weird and contrived. further, these well-intentioned muslims subsequently have a hard time seeming like normal, functioning members of society - an unsurprising result of their having done everything in their power to isolate themselves from it.)

i remember speaking to a skeptical friend about the former approach (what i promote personally), and saying to him that though such a way of going about things is potentially dangerous, “sometimes your iman needs to dip a little bit before it shoots back up.” and hence the resiliency.

this approach of increased resiliency can, i feel, translate to the love game as well, though most muslims nowadays follow the latter approach on this issue. as an undergrad myself heavily involved in my MSA, i can personally attest to the sort of emotional retardation amongst my fellow muslim brothers and sisters, myself included (it’s what happens when you avoid tough questions). i only just within the past few years realized this (a product of being indoctrinated into muslim gender-relations culture from an early age). i mean, there’s a reason why its easy for muslim men to hold a conversation with a suzie, but once a sehar comes along, we freeze. sehar was always taught as something to actively avoid - hence the mad awkwardness and roundabout approach that adam finds rather bizarre.

what needs to be advocated i feel is the sort of engaging sort of attitude that i described above. go ahead and talk to a girl or a boy. get acclimated a little bit. let yourself feel what its like to crush on someone and then have it perhaps not work out. these are the “emotions getting involved” that i think adam was referring to. i’m not saying go overboard, but there are methods and ways to talk to the opposite sex in a safe way, but those safe ways have to be decided upon by the two actors involved. what is “near” to zina is not as easily defined as some may make it out to be.

i dunno i kinda ranted there, but i hope it had some semblance of structure…i’d love to elaborate on any points that may have been weak or confusing. people say i go on tangents a lot…

ps: for some laughs, check this: for some laughs, some people may enjoy this: http://stuffdesislike.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/42-undisclosed-item-status/

Regarding the point that Adam made about taking romance, passion, etc. out of the equation, I remember reading that spirituality, “rahma” etc. are part of the equation, in addition to the legal aspect.

I think that Onessa’s point is that some of this is over-intellectualized, and on a blog it could appear that way, of course. But it also has to do with rethinking approaches to the approach of marriage in a way that opens a larger discussion.

Sometimes I read the acknowledgements that people make to their wives in their books (including my latest favorite one) and its certainly sweet.

Thanks for this thoughtful article. This is an issue not only for converts but for Muslims in general and I find this problem all the time. Communication and relationships between Muslim men and women are frought with problems precisely because men and women do not naturally communicate (outside of family) with each other as they grow and have no idea how to form emotionally relationships with members of the opposite sex. The result is that single men and women communicate (as you pointed out) at high school level. The guidance that you can only talk to a women after making marriage intentions known strikes me as ludicrous. As a Muslim professional woman once confided, that she has much more adult (as in mature) conversations with her non-mulsim male colleagues on a daily basis than she has ever had with Muslim men. I find myself in a similar predicament. My female friends who I delight in discussing issues with, are all non-muslim, current or former colleagues and NO there have been no non-halal activities accompanying these discussions. We are far to pre-occupied with the issue of sex and our potential weaknesses to succumb to risk developing emotionally rich relationships that may or may not lead to marriage. To use an analogy, we are afraid to light a candle in the darkness for fear that we will burn the house down.

I confess to being one of the girls who has gotten offended at a salaam. In my defense, I have been in the situation where my reputation was maligned because I spoke with a male.  This male was older than my father and an immigrant.  Our conversation, held in a public space during a conference, was about labor law. The male was in a dispute with a former employer and I am a lawyer by training (as any lawyer can tell you, when we meet non-lawyers they tend to mention the legal cases they have been involved in).  This conversation was somehow interpreted by the male as showing a potential romantic interest on my part, which the male promptly spread throughout town. Not only did I receive phone calls from his intermediaries, but my family was getting calls from concerned third parties about the rumors of my “involvement” with a man twice my age.
In the end the rumors were shut down and this male was told I had no interest in him, but it goes to show why Muslim women may be weary of conversations. 

This incident was one crazy guy and it has led me to be weary of speaking with people raised in countries with less interaction between the genders least my conversation be seen as showing a romantic interest.  If a guy raised in the US or Canada were to approach me in a respectful manner (i.e., without giving me the very dirty one-over that I have seen guys in a bar give women) I would be happy to talk.  If things went well, we could then navigate the “secret world” of Muslim dating together (which just requires keeping prying Aunties/Uncles out of the loop).

Green

Liberal fundo said:
“Bottom line: what one culture considers flirting, another can consider vulgar or ridiculous.”

The reality though is that things much worse and more random than flirting occur in the streets of Muslim countries, especially by some types.

While I think there is a reason to make someone aware of something they may find egregious, harmful, or which trespasses beyond their dignity and boundaries, I think other things can be taken a little bit more lightly, especially when it appears to be a joke or not dangerous.

As I mentioned before, 2010 shouldn’t be the type of year where
people become appalled at the mention of Sarah Jessica Parker, especially considering some of the things that have been already mentioned in this blog and the number of times I’ve requested more privacy.

Is responding to minor things a good solution? Its time for some fresh thinking.

Perhaps a better way forward would be to pay attention to the 2010 elections and to comment on the recent 2 security problems (e.g. the attempted bomb detonation on the plane towards Detroit and the 5 convicted in Pakistan). However, I would note that groups have in fact been doing that already.

For the small and silly stuff, I’d propose overlooking what is . I really don’t think its causing widespread havoc or a security problem because of some culture clash.

amen to all that.  can you converts please take some leadership here and overhaul the existing systems?  the rest of us are too entangled in cultural taboos.

but convert, you got some misconceptions.  the practical matchmaking courtship system—although severely flawed—is personal, intimate, and bursting with strong emotions and romance.  you’ve just got to get past the initial hurdles.

as for public relationships—they exist in engagements.  if you aren’t at the stage where you are ready to commit, then both of you are still fair game to everyone else, aren’t you?  and let me say that many muslim women take jealousy to a whole new level.  it’s probably better for everyone if a lady doesn’t know that her husband approached mariam, jamila, and rana before he approached her.

in theory the traditional model sounds great—if a guy is interested, he gets the green light from a girl’s parents, then gets to know her. 

in practice, it’s just too big of an initial hurdle, and i’m amazed anyone gets married that way.
first of all, it requires a lot of initial attraction just to be motivating enough to get anything going.  so what about all the ugly girls?  what about all the girls who don’t give off a good initial impression because of their style/personalities?  what about all the girls with known “problems”—why would a man even start to get involved with a woman if all anyone knows about her is that she has some disease?  some of the women with any of these issues might be a guy’s incredible soulmate—but he has no way of finding that out.

second of all, does a guy really want to involve the girl’s entire family and potentially cause lots of pain all around—when he doesn’t even know if there is any basic level of compatibility? 

in the past, superficial attraction was a good enough basis for marriage.  because people married from their own tiny closed communities.  where everyone shared the exact same expectation of marriage roles and life values.

but now everything is all mixed up.

still—as long as the basic compatibility is there—same values, giving personality—you won’t have to worry about huge mistakes.  at least if you don’t have the typical modern american mindset (“i love you but i’m no longer IN love with you”—selfish, emotions-driven monster!).  get back into the traditional idea of what marriage is all about (and no—i don’t mean devoid of passion—but i certainly mean a good dose of practicality).  commit to sticking with it for the long haul (even through the low periods). 

anyway, my some miracle i managed to get hitched.  so now i’m an informal matchmaker to help the rest of you.  i’ve got some AMAZING muslim ladies (20s to early 30s) waiting for a fantastic husband to show up.  very smart women, good looks, sweet.  and they want to get to know a guy and aren’t insulted by interest.  so if you are a man and you want me to find you a wife, send your details (not just basic stats… come on.  what are you looking for, what are you NOT looking for, what kind of person are you)  and i’ll propose some potential matches for you to consider getting to know.

I also want to add the hypocrisy that muslim women display towards muslim men. Adam, if you were not a muslim you would not have that problem towards muslim women. They don’t act this way when a christian or non-muslim tells them they are attractive. They will even date and have sexual relations with people of other faith, but act like it’s some sort of taboo to do this with other muslims. Then they hide their pasts and come back and expect to marry a muslim man (traditionally, overnight, with no dating or sexual relations prior to the marriage), which I don’t understand. And most muslim men are just not willing to lay down and be the sheep herders in this case. I think first the hypocrisy needs to be addressed, than we can focus on the extremism of the interpretation that muslim men and women cannot be attracted to each other.

habib - what you describe is what many muslim men do as well. don’t try and pin this hypocrisy all on muslim women. this isn’t a pissing contest, we’re trying to work through this together and your attitude is not constructive.