Maybe they are not American women in mindset nor outlook? Merely residing here, especially it seems for us Muslims, does not automatically mean that die-hard attitudes are easily shed.

OmarG, I think the point is that American mosques should treat mosque-goers as they are treated in other American contexts. Perhaps by being in America, we should be working to change the standards rather than perpetuate the ones existing elsewhere in the Muslim world. And perhaps by raising standards, we can begin to see the type of behavior we expect to see from women in mosques.

Well, that can be pretty hard when we have an almost complete socio-cultural disunity. How do we expect non-Americans to act American-like when they are not, without some kind of compulsory assimilation??

We’re asking people to go completely against what they’ve known thier whole lives, all thier models and archetypes. I don’t think it can be done as the past decades of mosque history show. It only changes when the aunties and uncles as a class are edged out of power.

What would you suggest as a less draconian alternative?

I am an American revert, and I will address just the one part of this that seems to be the biggest issue at the masjid which I attend, and that is the crying children. At least at our masjid the children are not running around and screaming, though I have seen this before.

Our community is very diverse, with many cultures and languages. Some think that women with children should not come to the mosque at all, that they should stay home with the children.

That may well have been the best situation for the immigrant women when they were in their home country. And it might even be the best solution in some of the major American cities where there is a large and dense Muslim community. But currently, these immigrants and reverts might be too isolated if they could not access the sisterhood of the masjid.

For me attending Jummah is of tremendous importance. I could not practice Islam all by myself. But I do have some experiences from attending church here prior to my conversion.

In American churches, children are expected to sit quietly. The parents are expected to discipline their children. If a very young child starts crying and cannot be comforted, his mother will take him out.

Some churches now have a separate area for mothers with children, with the sermon piped in, so that the mothers can socialise and the kids can be as loud as they want, while in the main sanctuary, those who actually want to hear the sermon, and concentrate on worship may do so.

This seems like a good solution to me. Also, because those women who do not understand english do not really benefit from the khutba, but they do benefit from fellowshipping with their friends.

There was an akward situation this past friday, a young mother’s child started crying loudly during the khutba and would not stop. She did not know to pick up the child and walk out. But the worst part, really unfortunate, was how some of the women told her she should not be there with the child after they finished their prayer. She was almost in tears. We really could be more compassionate.

OmarG, I agree that it requires no less than a change in leadership. I don’t think it needs to be abrupt, but American-born Muslim leaders need to start stepping up to the task of leading - and changing - our mosques.

Thanks for all the thoughtful comments everyone.  I wanted to add, to particularly address some of Mumina’s comments, that I was explicitly thinking about churches when I was writing this piece.  I kept wondering: what do they do differently that we somehow have not managed yet?  I think there does need to be more of a focus on keeping children disciplined.  However, that is hard when even the other adult (women) are chatting and not listening, and all the responsibility is put on the women. I’ve often found that children behave differently with their fathers than their mothers.  If men were more willing to keep the children, at least once in a while, the children might behave differently (especially since they could experience the different atmosphere in the male section).

I also wanted to clarify that this analysis reflects mostly my own experiences in the mosques I have attended, and I’m sure that the mosques that have a greater number of younger attendees may not have some of these issues. 

I also agree that a change in leadership will have to be part of the solution.  However, until that leadership is more diverse in ethnicity and gender, it will be hard to really get concrete changes.  After all, everyone does not equate leadership with change.

@Uzma: you’re right: we do need to keep our kids with us more often. I, especially love it when my 4 year-old behaves so well with me on Jumah. On the other hand, I’m acutely embarrassed by my older sons’ antics.

Also here’s a deep dark secret: sometimes we go to the mosques to decompress ever so briefly from the stresses of being a dad, somewhere I can go to feel like an adult for just a little bit and connect with God in the peace of a mosque compared to the loudness of home when they’re awake…just so you know :-)

OmarG, the darkest part of that secret is that the same respite is not given to many women ;)

Some observations, make of them what you may:

While the issue of how space is allocated in a mosque is indeed a significant issue that needs to be addressed for this reason and others (for example, this sort of separation also exacerbates domestic violence situations, because women often are unable to establish a genuine relationship with the Imam, whereas her husband is most likely on good terms with him, thus making the Imam more partial to making exceptions and excuses for the man), I think a key issue is not addressed.

And that is of American Muslim/Muslim American women CHOOSING to take on the role of primary caretaker for the children, and thus assuming the very responsibilities that come along with such gendered roles (which also would naturally extend to caring for the child in the mosque, amongst other places). Although my observation is mostly anecdotal, it should come to no surprise to anyone as I strongly feel that women that choose this path are in the majority rather than the minority. American Muslim women overwhelmingly tend to leave their professional and academic pursuits to become stay at home mothers, and while this is not necessarily a bad thing, the perception that it is the RIGHT thing to do, and that their decision is informed by their faith/Islam, and that motherhood is a noble challenge that all Muslim women should undertake, and that most of all, it is NATURAL…is quite common. It is also worth noting that these women are generally highly educated women that are considered 2nd or 3rd generation.

Whether I consider this to be a good or bad phenomenon is entirely a different discussion.  But I do think it’s unfair to pin the issue of women’s participation in religious activities, or a mans level of (un)involvement in his childrens lives on the immigrant experience.  I also find it troubling to suggest that cultural nuances ‘back home’ equate to unruly behaviour and poor social etiquette.

This article tends to suggest that men are holding women back from participating in mosque activities, becoming active members in their religious communities, and enforcing gendered roles whereas the reality of the matter is, a lot of Muslim American women gladly accept those roles.

@qudsiaraja, I suggest that you brush up on your reading comprehension skills. The conclusions you make in your last two paragraphs are erroneous, and have all the earmarks of a zionist participating under the guise of being a Muslim; trying to cause division.

haha. thanks for the suggestion but my reading comprehension skills are pretty on point.

in my second to last paragraph, i referenced this point that the author makes:

“Also exacerbating the situation is a tangle of generational and cultural issues. American Muslims immigrants bring the attitudes and expectations of their own culture and generation with them into the mosque. Many neighborhoods in Pakistan, for instance, do not have accommodations for women in the local mosques. When the women from these neighborhoods begin attending mosques in America, they do so without any previous understanding of mosque etiquette. This problem, of course, is also generational, and it often seems that the women, who were raised here and have gone through the American educational system, have less trouble conforming to mosque etiquette. The concept of listening to lectures, keeping your voice down, organizing groups to enter and exit in an orderly manner, are all inculcated in American school children. The behavior of Muslims bred in American mimics their behavior in educational and professional settings.”

She clearly draws a distinction between Muslim women immigrants and their cultural values/etiquette in mosques, versus the ones of ‘American’ Muslims. I find the argument faulty for several reasons. 1) I’ve already mentioned it, but i think it’s a pretty big (and wrong) assumption to make that immigrant cultures are inherently unaware of social etiquette. On behalf of my parents and their generation, I find that offensive and irresponsible 2) While it may be easy to suggest that immigrant Muslim women behave this way in mosques because of their lack of exposure to mosques/the public sphere, what’s to explain similar behaviour amongst Muslim (immigrant?) men in mosques? I think the mens section has its own fair share of problems - be it not turning cell phones off, chit chatting, so on and so forth. sure, they may be quieter during the khutba because they’re sitting right in front of the khateeb - so yes, I’ll give her that much credit for acknowledging that. I agree with that much. but I’ve seen similar bad habits amongst immigrant men and ‘American’ Muslims. what’s really to blame? cultural differences? i just don’t buy the argument.

As for the comment I made about many Muslim American women opting for gendered roles - what about that comment enraged you so much so that you had to start with the name calling? Why is it that saying ‘muslim women increasingly accept gendered roles’ is offensive? do gendered roles really offend you that much, or is it the uncertainty of my identity? I think you’re reading too much into my response. Please check your insecurities at the door - you’re making the faulty connection between ‘gendered roles’ and ‘subservient’/‘second class citizen’, when that is FAR from the case.

I haven’t really communicated my personal thoughts on gendered roles. In fact, I stressed that my personal take on it is irrelevant. I really and truly believe that Muslim women that identify with gendered roles are in the majority, and that they willingly take on those roles. So why victimize them in the process? If it’s something that is chosen by many, why point fingers at the men and ask them to pitch in, when technically they are most probably already fulfilling their gendered role by being the bread winner?

As for the comment about my post as ‘erroneous’ and one bearing ‘all the earmarks of a Zionist participating under the guise of being a Muslim’...well, all I’ll say is that, if anything, one can always count on Muslims to come up with conspiracy theories when someone presents a counter point not to their liking :)

That being said, you DID make my morning. No ones ever called me a Zionist before. But before you cook up more conspiracy theories, let me assure you that Asma Uddin, the editor of this lovely website, can vouch for my ‘muslimness’. Sorry to disappoint.

I forgot one last comment:

There was a report out perhaps in the past year (or 2?) ago about a similar trend amongst American women as a whole. Educated professionals that decided to quit their jobs and devote their time at home (and in essence, accept gendered roles). Of course, there’s a socioeconomic piece to this too, and all women obviously can’t afford to do this. But it’s still worthwile to note that, given the opportunity, women - muslim or not - are beginning to lean more towards accepting gendered roles again (and when I say ‘again’, I mean in the American context, where women previously fought for equal rights and equal opportunities in the workplace).

I think it’s a pretty interesting social phenomenon worth looking into.  I’d love to conduct a survey amongst American Muslim women about this - but i’d be sure to include a name and address verification section so as to ensure that Zionists under the guise of Muslims don’t skew the results :)

peace.

I was not finding fault with immigrants, that was the implication to which i objected.
I am truly sorry about the name calling. A bit of paranoia on my part.

And I never capitalize the word zionist.

Qudsia,

Valid points. And yes, I can vouch for your total Muslimness :)

I just wonder, though, if it’s possible for a woman to be the primary caretaker of her children but for her to still want to have some quiet space when visiting the mosque. While I agree that many of these women probably expect to have to sit with the kids when they go to the mosque, it might be nice to offer an alternative once in a while..like maybe a children’s room where men are allowed to sit as well. I find it troubling that kids’ rooms, when they actually exist, are women-only spaces, thus forcing women into a position they (and their husband) might not want.

It’s one thing to acknowledge that many women want to be stay-at-home moms and take full responsibility for their child in all public and private spaces, including the mosque; it’s an entirely different thing to assume all women are like this and then structure our mosques accordingly.

Again, my apologies to all those participating here.
At a friend’s church, I am told that the children go to Sunday school while their parents attend services, if they like.

What is the proper etiquette around parents mixing in Quran classes?
Or at Muslim schools? Do the parents ever act as teachers’ aids?
What if a mom or dad wants to go check on his or her kid in class?
Do Muslim schools have the equivalent of PTA meetings? How are those handled?

Is it possible that outside of the mosque sanctuary area itself, say, on a different floor or wing of the building, that the rules of conduct appropriate to business or education be observed?

@Mumina: >>outside of the mosque sanctuary area itself

I don’t think there is any concept of a sanctuary in a mosque in Islam. There are no special rules for good conduct inside versus outside a mosque and no stuffiness; Islam is easy and I always enjoyed the relaxed atmosphere of most mosques compared to the stuffiness of most churches I had attended as a child.

All the earth is a mosque as is said in the Quran so there seems nothing inherently sacred about a mosque building. Any sacredness, if it exists, is in the congregation of people to worship God. But, that’s just me though…

However, we may have gotten some customs like that from others over the centuries by insisting on taking our shoes off in the mosque (I can’t recall any such thing mentioned about the Prophet’s time), carpets (Prophet’s mosque had gravel) or not mixing (the women were behind the men and the companions were known to visit each others homes and socialize with the spouses of friends if they happened to be not home). Just try any of that today and people will totally flip out.

Yes, Omar,

The term “sanctuary” is one I borrowed from my Catholic past, to refer to the masjid itself. Are there better terms to use to differentiate the area of worship itself from others that might be on the grounds such as book store or snack bar?

You see, I would not converse with you in the area of worship, and if we were at a mosque that had a snack bar, I would not come over and sit with you at your table. But I would consider it appropriate to exchange pleasantries if I were the snack bar cashier and you were a customer, and I would also consider it appropriate to work with you at the snack bar.

I have attended a fund raising dinner at a mosque where meals were served family style around big tables. And there, whole families sat together, as they would at a restaurant. And I was welcomed to sit with them. So I might end up joining you and your family around a table like that,(sitting next to female members of course), in a different wing of the very same building where I might have worked with you at the snack bar, but not have sat at your table at the snack bar.

Now, that I am writing about it, I remember how exhausting all this was for a new Muslim to navigate.

Salaams,

Mumina

I think the norm is to have the prayer space segregated but common areas integrated. That’s why I suggested that the kids’ room be integrated. Even if adults are praying in the kids’ room as their kids run around, presumably they can do so with men in front of women.

That sounds good.