>>ex-fiance and her family about how the ‘islamic’ way was that her money was her money, and my money was ‘our’ money,

Yeah, that’s the biggest crock I’ve heard and merely reduces the man into slavery to women. The proper retort to that and to the canard about the Sunnah doesn’t require women to work, is to change your phone number and run.

That and so many other assertions just highlight how conservative people live in such a la-la land divorced from the reality of real family situations. Kudos to HM’s parents for stepping up to the plate and doing what needs to be done instead of passing the buck onto gender roles.

I found it really interesting that HijabMan believes it is because he didn’t grow up around a lot of Muslims and didn’t interact with the Muslims at his university that he had the good fortune of not encountering “Muslim gender” until his twenties.  I wonder what this means for those of us who have grown up in gendered Muslim spaces - how “objective” can we really be if, whether we like it or not, we have probably internalized the gender dynamics of our community and relate back to them either as an ideal to aspire to or a norm to rebel against?  Also, I’d like to hear HijabMan’s thoughts on the gendered experiences that he surely had outside the Muslim community while growing up.  How much does he believe his experiences operating in society as a man have affected his understanding of gender as well?

OmarG:  crock or not, it is the “islamic” way for many Muslims—and that just adds to the difficulty for young people to find spouses.  You need to figure out where they are on the spectrum, and I’m not talking just general spectrum here. What confused me most was the mix and match game- some very liberal aspects, some very conservative aspects.  Sure, we all do it to some extent, but when I was dealing with it?  It confused me to no end.  So then you have people who say “this is islamic!“  “this is islamic!“  but then go eat not-so-halal fast food.  I’m not saying this to judge, I’m just saying, it is pretty darn confusing.  And to some extent, I’m grateful I did come face-to-face with that reality—because it forced me to actually DEFINE my approach to islam.  (See http://www.hijabman.com , within the last 3 posts)

Rabea:  Maybe Abbass and I need to have another interview, hahaha.

A couple of things, my older sister’s influence was key.  She was giving me reading materials on ridiculousness of zina laws in Pakistan as a teenager. I was also reading Fatima Mernissi, Leila Ahmed, Farid Esack, Amina Wadud, Asghar Ali Engineer, yada yada yada, starting from when I was 15 and being part of the Progressive Muslim Listserv.  I went to my first progressive Muslim conference at 16… so my experience with Muslims from a very young age—- progressivey Muslim scholars.

As far as non-Muslims, my experiences in public school most definitely allowed me, quite clearly to decide what kind of man I wanted to be.  I’ll just give you three quick examples.  1. Age 11.  I ask a football player, in homeroom class if he’s doing okay, he’s clutching his arm and wincing.  Within 3 minutes, he has his hand against my throat, bending me backwards against a desk. In his face, all anger.  Severe anger management issues.  Not what I want to be like.

2.  Sexually harassed in the gym locker room, Age 16.  Explanation here:  http://hijabman.com/journal/i-didnt-want-to-call-it-sexual-harassment
Definitely, not what I want to be like.

3.  Working for mediaed.org at the age of 18.  I interned for the Media Education Foundation. Where we worked on videos like Killing Us Softly, or Dreamworlds, which dealt with images of women in advertising or images of women in music videos on MTV, respectively.  Or, wrestling with manhood, and tough guise… about the construction of masculinity.  So there you go, here I am at 18 developing my identity, and I am constantly being reminded that a. images of women in the media—aren’t really women, just airbrushed, infantilized, and put in an animal print, and b. the way masculinity is sold and packaged really messes with boys heads.

If i was you, I’d sit your 17-18 year old down and watch stuff like this. It was so helpful. http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&keywords=gender&template=PDGCommTemplates/HTN/SearchResult_Gender.html

4. Just for good measure. Taking “muslim” classes in an academic setting.  My first women’s studies class in college was “Historical Construction Of Sexuality In The Middle East.“  Again, I was introduced to medieval islamic texts on sexuality, and discussing Islam in an academic setting.  Definitely helped shaped my worldview.

Hope this answers your questions in some way or another.  Maybe I’ll write up a piece.  Asma can you hear me? :)

I can hear you. :D ..and will hold you to a deadline.

“>>ex-fiance and her family about how the ‘islamic’ way was that her money was her money, and my money was ‘our’ money,

Yeah, that’s the biggest crock I’ve heard and merely reduces the man into slavery to women. The proper retort to that and to the canard about the Sunnah doesn’t require women to work, is to change your phone number and run.“

Her money separate from family money exists for a reason.  So that women have means of sustenance if they are divorced or widowed, or if the man simply wastes the family money.  Men are to provide, while women produce and cohere the family traditionally this is biological.  Women are at a distinct economic disadvantage in traditional cultures.  Which is why Islam was revolutionary in providing for them… in dowry and inheritance.  Remember they get less in inheritance because of the greater responsibility of males.  But those males are not always able to provide.

In modern society this imbalance lessens but it is still there and still to be seen in dire situations.  The societal dynamics as a result of biology cannot be denied.

I don’t really accept the biological argument for gender roles. There is way too much sociological evidence that people can and do structure their gender roles in a wide variety of ways appropriate to their circumstances. This is why Allah gave us lots of brain tissue: to adapt and overcome.

I think its a grand mistake to fossilize 7th century gender norms which are alien to my society and then tell us God requires us to conform to manufactured norms borrowed by nascent Islamists a century ago from women-hating Western traditionalists.

Anyway, such ideas may have been revolutionary in the clime of 7th century Arabia, but we don’t live there nor live then. Its a different world with different standards and we need to accomodate that by returning Islam to the same flexibility that allowed a Prophet of God to be supported by Khadijah, be guided by his wives political advices and still be a man amongst men.

Let every family negotiate their own gender norms and let no one tell them what to do and therefore spread misery by ignoring the unique social reality present in each and every family. There is no one-size fits all solution to gender roles, especially not from God.

I do agree with you about being flexible, but there is way too much lack of acknowledgement of biology in the modern world as there is way too much structure around it in the premodern world. 

Independence works for small units but not necessarily societies…well that’ a broad generalization but there’s only so much of a conversation one can have in a comments box.

Thanks for the thorough response! I think another piece is appropriate. I look forward to reading it:)!

This is an interesting interview, but I don’t know that it applies to everyone. It seems hijabman has grown up in a non-traditional environment.

I’m not sure that every part of the interview reflects everyone’s experiences. A lot of parents have expectations of job security for their children so they encourage some fields more than others, which doesn’t always turn out wrong either.

This altmuslimah blog entry is relevant to this interview/discussion:

http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/r/3471/

I also didn’t grow up with strict gender roles, so its good that is a point was FINALLY affirmed - months later - yeah I’m not a man! Well, not in an anatomical sense. In terms of my mother and I working hard through difficult times, of course you become stronger because of it.

Plus, the previous article that Asma referred to says that men look for women for non-violence. What type of violence is being alluded to? Is it supposedly coming out in the Berber songs of North Africa, the ones so popular in France? Anyone who listens to Cheb Khaled’s songs knows they aren’t about violence.

Let’s fix another misconception. In terms of adrogyny, I hear both men and women raise their voices and both men and women have been less than nice online. Both men and women have proved themselves to be competitive. In other countries, women may have the luxury of being more feminine, like in Lahore. This cultural difference may explain both the highly noted and much discussed “hyperfeminine” attributes, distinct for this culture, and also the fact that we, like people all over the world, sometimes raise our voices - sometimes in the privacy of our own home.