Muslim Masculinity: Relationships and Family (Part 2)

On Saturday, November 14, 2015, altMuslimah (“altM”) and the Princeton Muslim Life Program co-hosted the symposium, Muslim Masculinity in an Age of Feminism. altM is dedicated to broadening the impact of the conversation. The Twitter highlights are recapped here. Below is part two of the video recording and transcript of the second panel, Relationships and Family. Part one is located here.

Dr. Ahmed: [How do we socialize] our community to start addressing some of the issues, the impact of relationships, showing alternatives. Yes, it’s a challenge, but what are the different things that we can do? How can you deal with it? How a family deals with it will be different depending on the personalities involved. Those are some of the things I think we need to start thinking about. How can different personalities engage for all of it as a husband, as a spouse. Really thinking about and providing models, because right now we don’t have too many models for young people to follow.

Asma: Continuing this conversation on gender roles, Dr. Naeem, do you think that traditional gender roles are perpetuating patriarchal masculinity?

Dr. Naeem: Human beings reinforce certain ideas about whatever they want to reinforce, so if this is the box or the role that the man is supposed to be in, then you’re going to have a system of knowledge and a system of reinforcement that will push our young men and our young women in there. To give an example, in the African-American Muslim community… there’s many, many good examples of good strong families (I come from one of them). But when you’re talking about a community mainstream-wise [which] has an 80% single parent rate, there’s a lot of instability and certain things, and some of these characteristics even in connecting with the question, get reinforced.

I’ll see on Facebook, Instagram, and [other] social media, people reinforce that [notion of] “I want to be with a bad boy or a thug.” People gravitate and reinforce young men that if you behave and act in such a way, it will yield you certain things. If you remember the older Axe commercials, if you spray yourself, [the women] just all come on you. It gets really true.

I did a men’s group on masculinity for a year and I had brothers sit down and [talk to] me [who were] in the abusive relationships. I’m going to get to a couple of the things the brother was saying about why men abuse and where some of that stuff comes from, but you’ll see a lot of the stuff goes back and forth.

I’ve seen cases verify [how] twisted [it becomes] because these values get reinforced so much. I’ve seen cases where families, where the wife will encourage, [where] she needs to know that a man can protect her by being able to beat up, be stronger and beat up on her. I’ve had men and women tell me this directly. It gets that deep in terms of reinforcing and pushing certain values. Abuse is not exclusive to [the] African-American community. We’ve gone through stories and seen all over the place what happens.

Why do people abuse? I’m telling you as an expert on human behavior, abuse is a complex behavior. A complex behavior has to be learned; it is not innate [unlike] a baby when it needs to suckle, [it] has that innate ability… [Abuse] is a complex and a diseased behavior that is learned. It comes from generations and generations of things that get reinforced.

Then there’s also a physiological and internal component as well in terms of when your brain lights up and I think one of the questions coming was rage or anger. When you get escalated, how do [you] cope? That is learned as well. It’s what is seen.

I see a lot of times in [the African American] community, especially in an impoverished community, where people are trying to survive day-to-day, where people have not been taught functioning coping mechanisms, it [becomes] really hard to break these dysfunctional tendencies and these things get enforced.

It’s an interplay that yes, you’ll get more men if you act this way and yes, you’ll get more women if you act this way. This is a desired effect. Then you have the intragender politics and the intragender dynamics that [men] have to appease other men and be seen as higher in the status of other men by having and obtaining these characteristics that are really just arbitrary. The only thing that’s going to save us is what’s actually in our tradition and what’s natural to ourselves, which is again going back to that love and mercy.

The verse [about the Prophet] is the “blessing to all the worlds.” If I said mankind, that’s not what I meant to say, [it’s] to all of creation. In translation, there is a lot of jargon. This is going to the last point I’m going to make that we men, and especially women, have to engage Islamic knowledge. Islam’s a better religion with a higher percentage of female scholarship. It always has been. The history shows that we don’t just leave or scapegoat these values and scapegoat these things so people in the corner thinking that they have our religion hostage or [on] lockdown. It’s something everybody can engage when your heart is trying to connect with God.

Asma: Several of our panelists have already started getting into the topic of domestic violence, which was going to be the third and last subtopic that I wanted to explore. Before we go there, Javed, I started my question with Dr. Naeem about gender roles. What do you think needs to happen to encourage greater gender role flexibility for men and how would it affect Muslim marriages?

Javed: Stop reading Muslim marriage guides. I was half joking. They perpetuate that very strict idea of what Muslim masculinity is and what Muslim femininity is. I think this is already happening in general in the United States and American Muslims are subject to these same socioeconomic forces. My friend Azim was attending the mosque in Chicago and he was around the men’s table and all of his peers were with him and with their children. Some mosque uncle said, 5-10 years ago, the children would all be at the women’s table. So, this is changing a little bit.

The mosque in terms of content and form needs to change. They still are reinforcing those very specific and rigid gender roles. Sermons need to emphasize household responsibilities rather than male and female responsibilities and they need to address men and women equally, not just a shallow brothers and sisters during khutbah. Spaces need to reflect that, that men and women are equally welcomed inside the mosque.

This is kind of silly, but parents need to teach [males] to, for example, clean the house. I was the youngest of 3 and it was always my sister cleaning the house. Now that I’m married and a stay-at-home dad, it was a really struggle for me to learn how to clean and actually take on those roles.

That two-pronged to education that I had spoken about before: young Muslim men being exposed to Muslim women, so that they aren’t just one-dimensional creatures in front of them, as well as theory, being exposed to different thoughts (feminist Muslim thought was a very powerful educational force in my life), along with teaching critical thinking and to create self-awareness. What are my actions? How are my actions affecting other people?

How [would greater gender role flexibility] affect Muslim marriages? I think it will benefit them by removing that anxiety and that tension that happens when you don’t meet those expectations, especially when you don’t meet those expectations as a result of forces you can’t control.

Asma: Domestic violence [is] the final topic I want to explore. We got into that a little bit, but [let’s] dig a little bit deeper. Dr. Ahmed, domestic violence is often seen as an internal hidden issue. It happens in secret in people’s homes. Yet we also know that these codes of silence are perpetuated by the broader cultures we live in. What do you see are some of the obstacles that prevent us from addressing these issues in a community?

Dr. Ahmed: There are a couple different factors. First, Islamic literacy. We talked over and over again [about] the influence of Islamic education and knowledge about what Islam says on this issues and how you address it. Someone mentioned earlier about Peaceful Families. We have a really nice resource that I highly urge you to look at and go through. It really breaks down many of these perceptions.

One is the fact of knowledge, but beyond knowledge, there also needs to be actions. In communities, what we see over and over again, [is] they’re afraid to get involved. “Oh, I don’t want to mess up that family. I don’t want to get involved here. What will people say? What will people do?” Until communities start taking action on the issue, start saying, “No, this is not acceptable and it will not happen in our community, and we are going to address it through male peer pressure, community peer pressure, in terms of these [behaviors] are not acceptable and you cannot behave in that way,” towards females getting the support that they need.

It’s not just, you get someone out of the relationship, but how can you support a woman when they’re struggling in this situation. How do you give them the skills?

We also want to help our men, the individuals who are perpetrating some of this violence. They’re suffering themselves. Oftentimes, they are victims of abuse themselves. They have experienced a lot of trauma in their life. We can’t just throw them aside.

We need to help them. We need to help change them.

There needs to be greater community intervention and the willingness to get involved in many of these issues… We need to bring [in] individuals and address these issues, talk about it during the khutbah. We need to have resources available. We need to exert peer pressure, congregational pressure. Let the people know that this is not acceptable.

If this is going on, what can we do as a community to help support all individuals involved? [We need to] really think about the ramifications it has on the next generation because there may be domestic violence going on and we may be focusing on the husband and wife, but the kids are seeing all this and they’re absorbing it and they are at high risk for perpetuating this in the next generation.

I think one, education, two, greater need and be involved, three, having resources within the community, as well as collaborating with the organizations that are out there and, four, more preventative work and addressing these issues. What are some of the red flags of domestic violence? Helping people understand [that] it’s not just physical, but there’s emotional and there’s sexual [aspects] and understanding how you address these issues… [and] providing those resources to people is extremely important.

Asma: Suzy, what does community accountability look like to you, particularly as it’s imposed by men within the community?

Suzy: Before I answer that question, I’m going to build upon something that brother Javed said, “Stop reading Muslim marriage guides.” I’ll agree with that, but shameless plug, stop reading them all except for mine. [In] one of my most recent books, Modern Muslim Marriage… [there is] a chapter on gender identification and gender roles within marriage.

Domestic violence is a problem and it is a problem within our communities. It’s startling sometimes for people to hear that because if we look around this room, there is a percentage [of people] within this room… who have experienced domestic violence. They’ve experienced emotional abuse, physical abuse. They’ve seen it happen within their families. They’ve seen it happen to their friends. We’ve all been touched by it in some way.

Again, as a community, we often look the other way. It’s unpleasant. We don’t want to talk about that man that we’re friends with or that woman that we’re friends with, the one who has an uncontrollable temper, the one who stands up at board meetings and starts screaming at the top of their lungs and you know that this person who is expressing so much anger within the community is most likely expressing similar anger in their home as well.

We excuse it. We turn the cheek. We turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn’t exist because we’re so afraid of shaming one another and shaming ourselves. So many individuals will go through this type of abuse without ever speaking up because they don’t want to air out their dirty laundry.

We haven’t done enough of a good job of creating safe spaces and areas of confidentiality where people can speak up and say, “This is what I’m going through. What should I do?” We haven’t created that sense of community, that sense of the Ummah that the Prophet (SAW) has urged us to have that [notion of] loving for our brother what we love for ourselves and loving for our sister what we love for ourselves. We’ve become so wrapped up in the individualistic tide of our society today that we feel like if it doesn’t directly impact me, it’s not my business.

But [domestic violence] is my business. It is your business. It is our business, because we can’t have a healthy community if we don’t have healthy families. We can’t have generations of healthy individuals growing up in this society if their foundation at home is weak.

If they are struggling to understand what it means to be a good role model, to have a Muslim father that they can look up to, a Muslim mother that they can look up to, a healthy relationship that is one that is as described by the [Prophet] (SAW) in his last khutbah when he talks about the relationship between the man and the woman and he gave that final advice: men just as you have rights over your women, your women have rights over you. He spoke about being committed helpers and partner in life. If we’re not seeing that in our families and our communities, then our generations will suffer.

I think Greg Mortenson probably said it best… I’m sure many of you are familiar with Three Cups of Tea, the book that he wrote, and his foundation Pennies for Peace… [When he was asked], “Why are you only building schools for girls?” His response was, “If I educate a boy, I’ve educated an individual, but if I educate a girl, I’ve educated a generation.”

This is what we have lost in many of our Muslim communities today. We are stressing the education in terms of what a strong society looks like. We’re stressing it among males and not necessarily among our females.

We need to go back to that motto, that motto of educating, of understanding, of recognition and not turning a blind eye, being able to open up the dialogue and to say, “If you’re in a relationship that leaves you scared, if you’re in a relationship where you feel like you’re not being heard, there’s a problem and it’s a bigger problem to be in that relationship without seeking help than to air out your dirty laundry and to speak to someone about it.”

Asma: My last question is for Dr. Bashir. How has patriarchal masculinity and male privilege contributed to a problematic interpretation of verse 4:34, the so-called “beating verse.”

Dr. Bashir: There’s a history with that verse. There’s a long version and there’s a short version, but for time, I will give you the short version. When the Qur’an was first translated, it was translated by Christians who wanted to prove that the Qur’an was false and that the Prophet Mohammed was out of his mind or was hearing voices or something like that. Unfortunately, because they were not religious scholars or theologians, many of the interpretations were woefully poor. They were not good translations. One of the first English translations that went worldwide was Marmaduke Pickthall, who became a Muslim and he translated the Qur’an without a lot of religious background. He didn’t know the ellipses of the Arabic language. He didn’t understand that, so he missed a lot of fine points in terms of this translation. In fact, it’s considered a poor translation by most.

The verse 4:34 has often been translated as after a series of things, the last thing you can do is that you can beat your wife if she doesn’t comply. First, you’re supposed to talk or have a shira, a counseling where everybody gets together and tried to resolve the issue. Then, if that doesn’t work, you separate from her bed. This is a deprivation because now you’re leaving the woman. This is supposed to be embarrassing. If she doesn’t comply then, you can beat her. What happened to a lot of translators is that they tried to alibi this and they would say, “You could beat her with a miswak.” The fact is that they’re authorizing beating and it usually comes up as, “You can beat her lightly.” That’s a pejorative term because what’s light to one person may be heavy to another. The idea is incorrect because of all the information that has come down to us, the Prophet Mohammed never beat any of his wives.

If he is the living example of the Qur’an, how did we get to this point?

[Verse] 4:34, the root word is daraba. When it says “to strike,” [it’s like] if I said to you, “strike the rock,” or, “strike a match.” Even in modern Arabic, they don’t “make” money, they “strike” money. It’s used out of context and unfortunately, many men read that and, without question, accept that as a male privilege.

4:34 is an extension of… male privilege. One time I asked a scholar from Al-Azhar, “What happens if the man is the person that did all the incorrect behavior? Can his wife beat him?” He was talking about equality. He said, “Are you trying to be funny?” “No,” I said, “You were talking about equality. What happens when the men violates?” He didn’t have an answer for that (and I had read his book before, so I knew). We have to understand that under no circumstances can you beat another human being.

Unfortunately, this notion of being able to beat women fits into a narrative that Abu-Lughod talks about [in her book], Do Muslim Women Need Saving?”… the West has… to go and “save” the Muslim women from wearing the khimar, wearing a burqa, being mistreated by men, being beaten by her men, but their resolution is “I’m going to save you, but I’m going to bomb your whole country to do so.” We see this narrative again with the patriarchy and the violence that’s coming out toward Muslims, Muslim women, Muslim children who never had a say in that.

I’m going to read some of the interpretation of a more progressive Qur’an. Daraba could mean “to travel”, “to get out”, “to strike” (like you’re striking rocks to make a fire), “to beat a rug”, “to set up”, “to give”, “to take away”, “to ignore.” What I’m getting at is that it has to be in construct and context of what’s going on at that time. When someone interprets [that] it means just “to strike”, you won’t know what they’re talking about unless you knew what an Arabic jar is or a modifier that would tell you what was the context.

It appears in the Qur’an almost 50 times. It’s never connected with beating another human being. We need to be vigilant and whenever someone proposes that that means you can beat your wife, we have to reject. I hope that an august body like we have today would start to review the different Qur’an [interpretations] and maybe state which one is gender equality as opposed to the ones that [are] still pushing patriarchy and telling people that they can beat their wives.

Asma: We’ll take all the questions and then we’ll give the panelists a quick opportunity to answer them.

Audience Member: … This conversation is good, but the conversation needs to figure out a way to take it to the mosque because that’s being occupied by men who are fossilized into thought processes.

Dr. Ahmed, loved your point: you’ve got to give respect to the man for his masculinity for the woman to have an equal share.

Audience Member 2: As Muslims, I think one of the problems we have is marriage is so central to our faith that we end up getting married a lot earlier than other members of American community. I think a lot of times we don’t have a clear sense of where we stand on issues like this.

For Muslims that are not yet married and coming into that role as a young man or young lady, what is some advice that you can give to them before they go and get married? For older Muslims who are married, now that the conversation has changed and you’re figuring out again the gender roles in your household, what kind of conversations can you have and how can you broach those conversations?

Audience Member 3: … There are cases in which it is public knowledge that certain people have committed certain actions, but the community doesn’t back the sisters that have come out and said that these things have happened. Sometimes it’s not necessarily just physical abuse, but it clearly would be defined by any legal system as sexual harassment or other things.

People were talking about airing dirty laundry. This is not like a Muslim versus non-Muslim thing. Look at the numbers or stories that come out about college campuses and the lack of support for women when they come out about these issues, about being abused.

My question is about community response. How do we begin to change a culture that is very much dominant, whether in the wider society or the Muslim community, [which] is not merciful to our women as they come out with these issues or expects them to be quiet about it and sweep it under the rug?

Audience Member 4: I’ve noticed a trend in my social media where if a woman comes out into certain circles as being a victim of abuse, her friends will lambaste the abuser publicly so that they can create a space of support around that victim and prevent future victims by acknowledging that this is a person who’s a known abuser. On one level… it provides that support and authenticity, but on another level it’s not addressing the issue of men and how do we heal men. Practically, in our communities, how do we strike a balance between protecting women and healing men?

Asma: How about we start with Javed and go down the line.

Javed: I totally agree with you that we need to bring it to the mosque. Also to repeat what Shaykh Rhodus said [about] creating third spaces if you feasibly cannot go in and engage in the mosque, but I also feel like we have a lot of room for activism when it comes to that. I’m a fan of pray-ins, women coming to pray at the mosque, getting elected on boards, things like that. Next year, I’m hoping to run for president of my mosque that I was just talking about.

As far as advice before marriage for young people… my wife and I, before marriage, we sat down and we talked the hard questions. Actually, we read a book called, The Hard Questions by Susan Piver. I liked it and it worked for us because it didn’t automatically assume that we were going to fit into certain gender roles. It asked how we were going to split up domestic responsibilities and things like that. I think young men and women need to talk about that and find people who are more flexible in that way.

Suzy: First of all, we all in this room acknowledge the importance of engagement of having young Muslim men and young Muslim women a part of our masajid, serving on our masjid boards, being able to have that kind of a voice and carving that niche out in our communities.

Here’s the reality: as a Muslim woman (I’ll speak from my own perspective here), who has three children, is blessed with a supportive husband, but who also works outside of the home, [and] who tries to be involved in external activities, there are days where I just want to sit at home and eat chips and not talk to anyone. There are days when I feel so much pressure because I’m like, “I can’t do that! I need to make sure that I’m on this panel today. I need to make sure that I’m coaching that mock trial team. I need to be at every soccer game for my son…” Sometimes we’re exhausted. I think what we see in a lot of communities [is] that the activism, the engagement, is happening by maybe 0.1% of the people in that community.

So, how do we empower one another? How do we encourage our neighbors, our friends to run for boards, to be active in the community? It’s by going back to that sense of the ummah. Call up your neighbor [and] tell her, “I think you should run for this position in the masjid.” And if your neighbor says, “Well, I can’t, you know, home and work and the children.” Tell her, “I’m going to watch the children for you every Sunday morning when you go.” Tell your husband to call his friend and do the same. Let’s connect with each other so that we can really allow each other to have our voices heard without always putting pressure on that 0.1% that does that.

To go back to the comment about domestic violence. I did not mean to make it sound like this was just a problem in the Muslim community. Domestic violence is rampant everywhere, but I think within our Muslim community, we may not be ready to talk about it quite as openly or as without reservation as other communities have. We’re getting there… We are starting to have those resources and those groups, but we’re not there yet.

I think it takes time to be able to remove that stigma. It also takes a lot of removing the victim blaming that occurs often in our communities. I cannot tell you how many times within my own community where I’ve heard situations such as, “Oh, this so-and-so got divorced but it’s because she has such a strong personality. It’s because she was the one that was never home. It’s because, did you ever taste her biryani? It was terrible.” There’s a lot of victim blaming that occurs and that’s not something that we can ignore. As much as everyone in this room may be nodding and saying, “Yes, yes,” we may know this, but it’s the people who are not in this room that need to hear it. It’s the ones who don’t come to a conference that’s called Muslim Masculinity in the Age of Feminism because they would scoff at it. They are the ones that need to hear it.

It’s incumbent upon each and every one of us, just as we take our dawah work very seriously, we want to go out there and say, “I’m Muslim. I’m not a terrorist,” we also need to go out there and tell our fellow Muslims, “I’m Muslim, you’re Muslim and we all need to care about this.”

Dr. Bashir: I found that a lot of young people are sincere in terms of their feelings and their wants to get married, but because of the way this society is constructed and some of the so-called Islamophobia, people need to be made aware of some of the external pressures that they’re going to have in marriage.

I worked as a psychologist for the state of New York for 23 years. I worked as a forensic psychologist. That means that I was working with people who had homicidal ideation and they were sexually assaultive. I had one guy, if he saw somebody at the bus in the middle of the day, he would attack them over and over again… He happened to be a Muslim. The only way that I can talk to him was in terms of doing things that are socially acceptable, but you never know the effects of drugs.

When I worked in houses of detention for young kids, many of the children there were Muslims: Africans, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Middle Eastern. I was surprised, “What are you doing here? You’re the last person I expected to see in here.” What is happening now with many of our youth is that they’re getting information from alternative sources and these alternative sources are blasted so much that it overshadows whatever you want to give them in terms of Islam.

I think someone spoke about this earlier, about starting with Muslim children at a young age because they will have to make a decision: what is good, what is bad for me? We haven’t come to that point yet. Men are going to have to get involved. They can’t just leave it up to the woman. Someone spoke about when the woman takes the children to the mosque, she’s there with four children and the brother’s sitting in the front, drinking tea and talking about what Ibn Taymiyyah said 1400 years ago. We need to change some of the dynamics in our society because we’re a society that is really under siege.

We’re talking about the nice and polite stuff, but there’s a lot of incidents going on where women are physically abused and assaulted by Muslims who pray five times a day. When you think about that kind of inconsistency and incongruity, you know that Islam is not being taught properly.

The last thing I wanted to say is I’ve been an advocate for third spaces for about 20 years. There are certain things that go on in the mosque that maybe make people shy away and not wanting to get their business out because it becomes public knowledge and is very embarrassing. Domestic violence is one of those.

A lot of the women that I’ve interviewed in my office, I asked them, “What would your alternative to domestic violence?” They would state quite frankly they didn’t want to go to the police because there’s so [many] problems and they would be concerned with the husband being hurt and injured. You have a double situation here: here’s a person who has been physically abused, but they’re still trying to protect their family and keep them intact. The message from the mother is, “Well, he’s a good provider.” That’s not enough. If he’s a good provider, that’s nice, but that’s not the end of his role as a Muslim man and his family. He has to treat his wife with some kind of equality.

Dr. Ahmed: Somebody had asked about pre-marriage sources. The Family Youth Institution has a number of different videos and web shots available. We send out articles every day, Monday through Friday, to help that conversation and to understand the issues that you would consider in terms of marriage. Once you’re married, how do you strengthen that relationship? How do you communicate? Again, really focusing on the how-to aspect.

Imam Khalid earlier this morning was talking about [how] it’s great to have these theoretical conversations, but how are we going to make the change? All of you that are here today, we’ve had this conversation on masculinity, but how are you going to implement it into your lives? We as attendees, individuals, and speakers, we need to help us facilitate that communication within our communities. In the past, we didn’t have research on these issues, we didn’t have resources, but now we do… We need to use them. That’s the first thing is

As we discuss masculinity in the age of feminism within America, we need to make sure that these discussions are rooted in Islamic literacy, social context and actionable items beyond just a discussion. Imam Jihad earlier today was talking about pick[ing] a lane and stick[ing] with it.

Each one of us has a social responsibility to find where [we] can be effective.

If you are effective in the masajid, great, we need to transform our masajid to start addressing these issues.

If you are not able to be effective in the community, figure out another way, another pathway to continue the transformation addressing these issues. These issues not only impact us, it impacts our future generations and it impacts America. We need to be involved in these processes and these discussions on change.

Dr. Naeem: There’s a lot at stake.

I wanted to address [the question] about getting married early versus late. I do want us to keep aware of our context in our society. We’re getting married later, but we’re getting married later for a lot of reasons because of a hook-up culture, so a lot of people are getting the sexual needs met prior to that. The commitment culture and the exclusivity culture is not really there too much. As far as a parent, I’m thinking about it myself for my own children, being able to financially support our kids for those formative years so that they can get married and have an exclusive relationship. It’s definitely something to think of, but do know that’s the trend in society that there’s not this, “Yeah, I want to get married and just be with you forever for the rest of my life.” You got two or three people on the phone and a few people down the street. You have to understand what we’re coming up against and how to subvert that.

When we are talking about abuse, I don’t want to [it] be a picture – it is a lot – of just a victimized woman. I’ve had a number of people growing up – I think it did traumatize me – show me how many slits on their wrist where they, [these] little boys, would try to kill themselves because their Quran teacher didn’t quite know how to act and [because of] bad relationships with fathers, uncles, older cousins…

Imam Khalid was [talking about this]. I was in that space [too] and it was a bad thing because I tried to help, but I knew I couldn’t. I said, “One day I’ll be able to.” Then umpteen years of school and psychology and all this stuff to be able to do that.

The picture of abuse, I wanted to expand a little bit. Our youth get traumatized. They see it. They’re victims of it. How much functionality do you think goes after something like that? How does somebody stay comfortable in their own skin? Trying to be a man and then you got all this macho stuff you’re trying to live up to. What do you do? How do you treat other people? Then we demonize that person because we don’t prevent it enough because we got these boxes. We’re creating a death sentence for ourselves. It’s something we can do, we can control… I just felt that [was a concept] to anchor us and look towards because this is very important in terms of masculinity.

Asma: With that, we will conclude. Thank you so much to all of our awesome panelists.


Read Part 1 of the transcript here.


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